Navigating Alcohol and Intimacy in Marriage

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome to the Catholic Sobriety Podcast , the go-to resource for women seeking to have a deeper understanding of the role alcohol plays in their lives , women who are looking to drink less or not at all for any reason . I am your host , christi Walker . I'm a wife , mom and a joy-filled Catholic , and I am the Catholic Sobriety Coach , and I am so glad you're here . Are you worried that you won't be able to connect with your husband fully once you reduce or eliminate alcohol from your life ? Have you used alcohol as a way to loosen up and get in the mood for intimacy with your husband , and you're wondering what that experience is going to be like without it ? If so , you are definitely not alone , because this is something that comes up time and time again with the women that I work with , and my guest today is here and she is going to be able to help . My guest today is here and she is going to be able to help .

Speaker 1 1:09

So Ellen Holloway holds a certificate in the fundamentals of sex therapy from Bueller Institute and is in pursuit of her Master's of Sacred Arts in Theology of the Body and New Evangelization through the Pontifex University . In her work , ellen promotes natural family planning and Catholic teaching on sex and intimacy through her business Vines in Full Bloom and through her podcast Charting Toward Intimacy Beyond NFP basics , ellen does one-on-one coaching in sex and intimacy for Catholic women . Thank you so much for being here , ellen . I'm so happy to have you today .

Speaker 2 1:52

I'm so happy to be here and talk about this topic . This is a very , very important topic when it comes to sex and intimacy that I think a lot of times , like just in the world , we just get the wrong suggestion . Oh yeah , when it comes to alcohol and sex .

Speaker 1 2:13

Yes , absolutely . I wholeheartedly agree with you on that . So that is why it's so great that you're here and , as I said in the intro , this comes up so much . I just cannot believe it . Actually , I can believe it because I understand why , but I just feel like the more information that a woman has , the easier it's going to be to be able to find ways to connect that don't involve alcohol , and I know that you'll help us with that . So , to get started , why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey and how you got into doing what you're doing ?

Speaker 2 2:51

Absolutely yeah . So when my husband and I first got married , when we first got married , we were just very uncatechized when it came to the church's teaching on sex and intimacy and especially the teaching on contraception , and ultimately it led to a very difficult first six months of our marriage . We both had a lot of wounds when it came to sex and intimacy and just starting off on the wrong foot with contraception in our marriage really just put things at rock bottom and it took us years to get out of that hole . And by the grace of God we found NLP , we learned the church teaching , we really embraced that and then that led us to just deeper understanding of the beauty and the goodness of the married sex relationship and just what that really brings to a marriage and what that really brings to the world . And so once I kind of got over the biggest hump of difficulty there , I was like , wow , okay , now I need to help other women who are struggling with sex and intimacy , whether it is from the purity culture or just a really sex negative culture where sex was just it was bad , it was dirty , it was oh , don't even think or talk about it until marriage , or where it's just not talked about at all .

Speaker 2 4:17

There's just no speaking of sex or just like that pendulum swing opposite of like , oh , sex doesn't actually mean that much , and having just more of that open sexual relationship and then kind of coming to terms with realizing oh , that's actually not how it works , and so that's really where I sit , is that you know , there's just not a place for Catholic women to find answers to practical questions about sex , like there's plenty of answers about you know what's what the church teaches and you know what's OK and what's not OK and things like that .

Speaker 2 4:58

But when it comes to practicalities like , oh hey , I've never actually experienced sexual pleasure , but I don't know what that is , or I've never actually experienced sexual pleasure , I mean , I don't know what that is , or I'm scared to death of sex and I just do it like the bare minimum when my husband wants to right , and just any of those kinds of situations where it's like , okay , clearly this is not the beautiful union that God really created for husband and wife and there's something missing here , and so that's where I sit and those are the type of women that I coach and the courses that's what helps .

Speaker 1 5:32

That's so

Building Intimacy in Catholic Marriage

Speaker 1 5:33

great . Yeah , it comes out like the work that I do , and I can hear it from you . The work that you do is like we wish that we had something like this or someone speaking out the way that you are about this topic of you know when we , when we , were going through our individual struggles , and so you know , when you see a deficit , then you want to still that and help people with what you've learned and you know , sometimes it's with a lot of research and trial and error and then you can bring that to others . So I love the work that you're doing . I love that it's focused on Catholic marriage and intimacy and , you know , just being a sacrament in the world , because marriage is so beautiful and so important to our world and our culture . So that leads me into those of us who are married .

Speaker 1 6:29

We know the importance of connecting with each other , right , we know that to have a good relationship we need to spend time together . But so often I hear like women will come to me and say you know , but , christy , like , my time with my husband is like after work , the kids go to bed , I pour myself a wine , he has a whiskey , we just talk . You know , sometimes it has nothing to do with the intimacy , it's just that connection . And they do it with alcohol and it even it accelerated even more during the lockdowns and when everybody was home and they didn't have to go anywhere . And so I think that people kind of develop couples develop like a habit or certain habits , and oftentimes it involves alcohol . So that also leads to intimacy as well with alcohol . So what can you tell us from your perspective about how important intimacy is in the marriage and how it connects us from our Catholic faith perspective ?

Speaker 2 7:45

Absolutely . Yeah , you know , and I think I really wanted to find a term here for everyone listening , because a lot of times I hear the word intimacy equated to sex . That is not true . Intimacy is so much more than sex and in fact , sex is simply a fruit of a deeply intimate relationship between husband and wife . Intimacy is not sex . So if , if your immediate reaction to like intimacy with my husband is like only sex , then we actually need to take a step back and work on building intimacy outside of the bedroom first .

Speaker 2 8:27

I think that even just that is where sometimes we have this issue with alcohol and sex is that we don't have that foundation of a strong , deep intimacy with our spouse , and there's actually a little bit of uncomfortability when it comes to really I mean , just to speak bluntly getting naked in front of our spouse . Right , the act of sex is deeply intimate . That's why we need deep intimacy prior to even engaging in sex with our spouse , and so if we don't have that foundation of deep intimacy , alcohol can really become a crutch to letting those walls down and kind of allowing ourselves to open up and be more comfortable , because ultimately we're actually missing out on a level of comfort that we should be building with our spouse . So I think one of the things that is really important for couples to just kind of take stock of is you know , am I needing this alcohol in order to feel close to my spouse ? In order or actually maybe even a better question is like am I needing this time that we're sitting down having this glass of wine , glass of whiskey , whatever ? Am I needing that in order to be open enough with myself , to share more deeply and or be open to having sex ? And if that answer is yes , or even if that answer is sometimes , then we need to take stock of the relationship itself , um , and focus on building more of that intimate relationship outside of the bedroom .

Speaker 2 10:15

One of the things I really like to recommend to couples the five love languages . If you've never heard of it , it's a book by g Chapman . He's got a ton of free resources on his website . You just if you is my spouse's love language , then you can , you know , step into filling their tank and then your spouse in turn is doing the same thing . Right , and you're building intimacy by loving each other and by you .

Speaker 2 10:59

Know , if your love language is physical touch , that doesn't mean sex . Physical touch means holding hands and putting an arm around you and giving a hug and giving a kiss , right ? If your love language is giving gifts , you know it doesn't have to be big , extravagant gifts . It can be a little note , you know , in your husband's like lunchbox or something right . It can even be the gift of packing your husband's lunch for him , right , like that's a gift

Importance of Marriage Intimacy

Speaker 2 11:24

. I think sometimes we get a little overwhelmed with the love languages of like oh my gosh , I couldn't possibly do all that . It doesn't have to be complicated . But really focusing on that foundation of an intimate relationship with husband and wife is absolutely key in a marriage .

Speaker 1 11:42

Yeah , I completely agree . In a marriage yeah , I completely agree , and I so appreciate the fact that you really detailed that like that , intimacy isn't just a sexual act , it's just kind of like the prelude and what makes that I love that . You said it's a fruit of that intimacy between a husband and wife and I can tell you like we used to have some issues , my husband and I , but we went to what's called a marriage encounter it's a Catholic marriage thing and we did that like after 12 years of marriage and getting really honest with each other and vulnerable . It was worse than like getting naked in front of each other . And vulnerable it was worse than like getting naked it is .

Speaker 2 12:26

It can be really scary to be that open and vulnerable , and that's why we rely on alcohol , because alcohol easily puts us in that open spot where we're more comfortable being vulnerable , like I think one of the most interesting facts about alcohol is that , like , if you're trying to learn a language , it's actually easier to learn that language if you've had a little bit of alcohol , because what alcohol does is it brings those walls down , doing if we're relying on the alcohol to take our walls down then in our marriage , then we're actually missing out on a level of intimacy .

Speaker 2 13:11

Like when you're learning that language , you're afraid to make mistakes , and so that's why bringing the walls down makes it easier to learn a language , because you're not afraid of making mistakes . And I think and I think we'll get into this more later in our conversation but there's so many ways to bring those walls down that don't include alcohol , and that is that's something that I think everybody , everybody could work on whether or not you have a difficult relationship with alcohol is that we don't need alcohol to do that for us . We can do that ourselves , but we do need to focus on that foundation of deep intimacy first and foremost .

Speaker 1 13:58

Yeah , I agree , and it's a really slippery slope with alcohol . Right , it's not like horrible to do that , or you know , you go out to dinner you like , are on vacation , you have you know something to drink while you're on the beach , and then it leads to that . So it's not that it should never be part of the equation . It's just that alcohol actually numbs the good with the bad , so it inhibits your ability to be fully present with your spouse and really intimate , like you were saying . And so I really think that the more that we can have sex or experience intimacy whether that's , like you said , holding hands , cuddling , just being together , being open with each other , with our thoughts and our dreams and our feelings and emotions If we can do that without alcohol , it's going to be so much richer and produce better fruits than when we're numbed out , because it can be really hard , even if you've had a couple of glasses of wine , to really maybe remember everything or to have fully experienced that moment together . And then again , I say it's a slippery slope , because if you are relying on it as a crutch , then then pretty soon for some women , then they think they can't do it without it , they can't connect and have really honest conversations . Without it , they don't think that they can be vulnerable with their husband .

Speaker 1 15:38

Without it , and to be honest with you , anybody can become addicted to alcohol . You don't have to have a predisposition , you don't have to have a family history . The more you drink , the more often you drink , the easier it is to become dependent alcohol dependent . We can just see that for what it is now and not rely on it in those situations , but use it for , you know , to enhance a moment , or enhance , you know , whatever . I don't drink at all , so I don't use it . But then there's other ways that I do that . You know that don't include alcohol . Maybe it's a moth tail , maybe it's a non-alcoholic wine or beer . You know , it's just like celebratory for me to do that and not something I do all the time , and the same thing with alcohol . So I think that that's really important to know as well . Um , so , theology of the body I love , I love , love , love that you're getting masters of that .

Speaker 1 16:48

I mean , it's such such a beautiful uh doctrine is a doctrine or teaching of the church . What is it considered ?

Speaker 2 16:57

so it's considered a , a papal teaching , um , which means it's not a doctrine of the church . So what Theology of the Body is was a series of teachings that Pope John Paul II gave over the course of five years . There was breaks in between , but he broke this large book that he had actually written prior to becoming Pope . He broke it up into these small chunks and he delivered them at his Wednesday audiences . All the Popes give a Wednesday audience , so he delivered them kind of in sequence , with a couple of breaks for different things over the course of five years , and so it wasn't actually until he finished delivering them and all of it was available that then it kind of got put into a book . There was a new translation and now we're just really starting to get into the depth and goodness and beauty that exists within this beautiful people teaching . But essentially it's a really long Bible study .

Speaker 2 18:06

What Pope John Paul II did ? He took the Bible and he was like let's learn about God through the bodies that he made us , because we're body , soul , union and our body is part of us . It's not just like the shell that we're housed inside and we're just waiting for our soul to be liberated from it . That's not what we believe as Catholics . We believe we are a body-soul union , and so what happens to our body is important . What we do with our body is important . It affects our soul . That's why the relationship , the sexual relationship between husband and wife is so deeply intimate , because our bodies are a part of us . They're not just this thing that we have , they are us , and so what you do with your body and the way that you act intimately with someone else is massively affects your entire self , your soul .

Speaker 1 20:15

Yeah , oh yeah , thank you for breaking that out and for noting that , because that is so important , because I do think a lot of times people separate the two . But we are temples , right , temples of the Holy Spirit . We are body , soul and , yeah , and in this culture , in today's hookup culture , right , people don't realize what they're doing when they're attaching themselves to another person in that way . I certainly didn't , you know , and so it does cause a lot of , you know , walls and trauma and wounds to form because of these , and we see the why of it right through these teachings , because once you read it , you're like , oh well , that's why that's you know . You're like , oh well , that's why that's you know . But can you so , elaborating on theology of the body , how can it guide couples to experiencing a fulfilling and sacred intimacy within their marriage ?

Speaker 2 21:25

Sure , yeah . So you know , one of the things that I like to kind of caveat with Theology of the Body is , a lot of times we see Theology of the Body and we're like , oh , that's that thing over there , and then the rest of Catholicism is over here , and really , what Theology of the Body is ? A way to understand the entirety of the theology of the Catholic Church through our humanity . And so this was Pope John Paul II . He was teaching us a new lens , a new pair of glasses through which to view God and theology and the church and just the entire mystic life theology and the church and just the entire mystic life . And so that's part of the reason why theology of the body can actually just . It can really influence every aspect of our lives , but in particular the union of husband and wife . When we look what the union signifies , it becomes

Deepening Understanding of Marital Intimacy

Speaker 2 22:31

pretty deep , very , very quickly . So the Trinity can be explained in a lot of different ways , and that's partially because we don't fully understand the Trinity right . We're just not going to understand an incarnate , ever-present , omnipotent , perfect God . We're never going to understand everything that goes on with the Trinity , but we use different images to help us understand it . So this is one image and this is where we can see how the marital union really impacts our own theology is that the father so we have the father , the son and the spirit three persons of the Trinity . The father initiates the gift of love toward the son . The son then receives , fully receives that gift from the father , fully receives that gift from the father and in that receiving of the gift becomes a gift himself to give and give it back to the father . Then the father fully accepts that gift and further becomes a gift back to the son . So there's like this spiral that is like ever deepening , getting , it's getting bigger and bigger . Thinking about about how the universe is ever-expanding . The Trinity is also , in a way , ever-expanding and the Holy Spirit is that love that is going between the Father and the Son , that love that's ever-expanding .

Speaker 2 24:10

Now let's look at the marital relationship and particularly the act of intercourse and what is biologically happening . Because what theology of the body allows us to do is we can look at the biological and we can help that can allow us to inform the theological . We can see how the biologic design that God has created in our bodies helps us understand these crazy deep concepts that God has created in our bodies helps us understand these crazy deep concepts . So what's happening in sex is that the man initiates a gift of himself . He literally gives a part of himself to the woman and yeah , I'm speaking really literally here and it might feel a little uncomfortable , but I'm talking about firm he is physically giving a part of himself to the woman and the woman is physically accepting like fully accepting that gift into herself . There's no deeper way that she could accept the gift than by actually bringing it into herself .

Speaker 2 25:04

And so , by accepting that gift , she is then becoming a gift of herself back to her husband , and then we see this same spiral happening , is that then the husband is receiving this gift of his wife , this gift of her whole person , and he's further giving himself , his whole person , over to her and sometimes , sometimes , that love turns into a third person , right ?

Speaker 2 25:33

So we have this image of the Trinity happening every time that a husband and wife come together , and I think it's also important to kind of note that , like , even if a third person doesn't result from that , there is still a fruitful aspect to every encounter , every sexual encounter that a husband and wife have , if they're coming together freely , totally and faithfully and giving themselves fully to each other . There is a fruitful aspect in that the relationship is deepening and that we're actually opening ourselves up to God even more , and that we're actually opening ourselves up to God even more . So that's your quick version of one tiny aspect of how Theology of the Body can help us understand our marriages , and then how our marriages can help us understand God .

Speaker 1 26:24

Yes , oh my gosh . I was like on the edge of my seat like I've never heard it explained that before . Very dynamic , I was like that's so beautiful but , it really is .

Speaker 1 26:35

It's so beautiful . So I love your energy and I love the way that you explained it , because I think that that is something that , even if somebody is not really sure about theology of the body , but has heard about it , I think that that is just a beautiful imagery and an explanation that could really resonate with so many of us . So thank you for that . So , with that in mind and you kind of touched on it earlier when we were talking about some of the obstacles to intimacy what are some misconceptions about sexual intimacy in Catholic relationships ?

Speaker 2 27:18

Oh my gosh , the biggest one that I hear is a misinterpretation of Ephesians 5 , and it's the duty issue and it's like it is the . It's the duty of the wife to give sex to her husband and it's just like there's so much missing in that interpretation . Um , when we reduce the sexual relationship to one of duty because in in that case , then it just becomes a checkbox , it becomes something I have to do , it becomes it goes on the list with the laundry and cleaning the bathroom , and that is probably the worst thing that could happen . If sex goes on your like checklist things I need to get done this week list , it shouldn't . Sex should be and I said this before and this is just like it's one of my lines that I say all the time like it should be the fruit of a deeply intimate relationship . And if you are solely having sex out of this , just like feeling of this is just what I'm supposed

Overcoming Barriers to Intimate Sex

Speaker 2 28:23

to do as a wife , then we're missing out on the intimate aspect of sex . It's like it's not an intimate act at that point . It's simply just . You're just trying to like take care of something . It's like you're trying to take care of a dog and that's . You know . We're just , we're really missing something there .

Speaker 2 28:48

Yeah , something , yeah , another common one that I see and this is going to bring us back a little bit more into the alcohol space is and this isn't necessarily with Catholic marriages , but is that just common misconception of I can't get relaxed enough for sex without that glass of wine . I just need that glass of wine and I've been there . That is part of my story . I truly , truly believe that there was no way I could have sex without having a glass of wine or having a cocktail , and it got to a point where that was actually true , where I couldn't , I could not relax enough , and a lot of that was due to issues on a much deeper level that I had with sex and intimacy . It actually had nothing to do with relaxing enough . That's what we tell ourselves . We tell ourselves it's about relaxing , but it's not . It's not about relaxing .

Speaker 2 29:54

What it ultimately is about is healing our understanding and relationship with sex and then also again building that foundation of deep intimacy , because I had kind of again , this is just part of my story and I think a lot of women might relate to it is that I had been in sort of this understanding of , okay , sex is just something that my husband wants . I don't really care about it . I don't get any pleasure from it . I don't really care that much about it . I could take it or leave it , but it's something he wants and I'm supposed to give it to him because I'm married to him and that's what a good Catholic wife does . But I'm never interested in it , and so the only way I can get there is buy a glass of wine , and so I have to have a glass of wine in order to be a good wife . And now suddenly we have just wrapped it up in our head into something that is so not , and we're missing out on love and intimacy in that relationship and really we're just kind of again , we're checking the bar .

Speaker 1 30:58

Yeah , I'm glad that you mentioned that part of it and I have to tell you like your energy went from explaining theology of the body and the whole mystical union of the trinity and you were like on fire . It just like your energy was so . And then when you were talking about duty , you're like , and some women think it's so , you know , and it really and that's how it is . If you think of it that way , then that's your energy as you approach it . But if you think about it in like this is something so beautiful and fruitful and you know God created it for a reason , then your energy is up and you're more excited about that and it isn't just then checking a box . So I love , I love that . I was just like , I just noticed your energy , just like .

Speaker 2 31:53

No , but it makes perfect sense . Is that right , like , if we don't have a full and true and good understanding of like how amazing sex is like and I'm not , I don't even talking about the pleasure aspect , I'm talking about like just how amazing , like , theologically , sex is that like ? There's just so much more excitement to coming into that , and that's a lot of what I do in coaching with women and in some of the courses that I have in the podcast that I host is just is building that understanding of like what we're coming into and how good and beautiful it is . Because , yeah , if it's not something that you enjoy , if it's something that's painful , um , or it's just something that , like , you just do to kind of placate your husband , yeah , you're not going to come at it with very much excitement because that sounds terrible , like I don't want to have that sex , like not at all , and I don't want you to have that either .

Speaker 1 32:59

Which is why you do what you do . I try to reach . There's so much more . There's so much more . But I also appreciated the part of your story that illustrated , like when you rely on alcohol as the crutch , or when you rely on alcohol or lean into it at first to kind of help with that . You know having sex with your husband or being open , but then how it became , you know , a habit or something that you had to have . I think that so many women listening can just relate to that . So how did you get out of that ? Like how were you able to break free from the need for that crutch and be able to really enjoy ?

Speaker 2 33:51

being with your husband in all aspects . Yeah , you know , it took . It took a long time and it took a lot of learning and as well as like integrating that learning into myself . One of the things I talk about a lot is like we can learn . We can learn a lot about theology and how great it you know the marital act is and and we can have that all up in our head , but until we actually integrate it into our life it's gonna change anything . Just knowing that sex like images , the trinity , that that's great to know , but if you're not integrating that actually into the act itself and like opening the act up to God and the Holy Spirit and saying , make up this act what you will , then you know we brought me into even being willing to have sex at the beginning Because I was so deeply terrified of sex and kind of honestly grossed out by it , just because of my upbringing and a lot of shame that had been built around sex and intimacy , and so the only way that I could get past that shame and that discomfort was , I believed , through alcohol , as I slowly learned more about the church teaching on contraception .

Speaker 2 35:28

I slowly learned more about the church teaching on contraception and then that led me into better understanding , like just the church's teaching on sex as a whole . I really started digging into theology of the body and starting to understand some of those concepts as well . When I started getting excited about really what sex was beyond just this like thing I have to do , that's when alcohol just dropped naturally for me out of the picture because it was like it became something that I wasn't forcing myself to do anymore . I was actually really excited to do and excited to come together with my spouse and open up to in that way . And I think that for some women like that might be the journey , that that might be the experiential journey is that alcohol just kind of naturally drops out , like it did for myself . But I think in other cases it does need to be a cognitive decision to say no , I'm not going to allow this to be a crutch anymore . I'm not because I don't need it to be , but I do recognize that I'm going to have to work hard , I'm going to have to learn , I'm going to have to pray , I'm going to have to open up to my husband , I'm going to have to be brave . I think that's something we don't talk a lot about when it comes to sex is that there's bravery needed to open up and be that vulnerable .

Speaker 2 36:57

And if we've been relying on alcohol , then there's like even more bravery that needs to be present , because how we act with alcohol is so can be so different than how we act without alcohol and we might be embarrassed about things we've said or done with alcohol with our husband that actually are completely and totally appropriate . One example might be like wearing lingerie and giving a little strip tease . That is completely and totally appropriate for a husband and wife to do . But if you're in a space where you're not quite comfortable with your body in that way , you're not quite comfortable with sex in that way and maybe there's still some fear of vulnerability with your husband , if you're not in that place but you've done something like that under the influence of a little bit of alcohol or maybe a lot of alcohol , there might be a lot of embarrassment and shame and you might kind of feel like , oh my gosh , do I always have to act like that ?

Speaker 2 38:03

I'm not even comfortable doing that and I just want to tell anybody who's like feeling that fear with like oh my gosh , if I take alcohol away from the sex situation like I don't know . I don't know what I'm going to do . I just want you to take a deep breath . Your husband loves you , he loves you and it's okay to tell him you're embarrassed by what you did one time under the influence of alcohol or a lot of times . Right , it's okay to tell him . And it's also okay to be like hey , I'm like I know you really like it when I I'll go on the same example of laundry . I know you really like it when I wear laundry . But like I'm not there yet , I'm not comfortable with that , that's okay . Like you're allowed to take your sexual relationship back a couple of steps if alcohol kind of pushed it more forward than where you're ready for , and that is totally okay . I just want to give you permission for that .

Speaker 1 39:08

Oh , I love that . Thank you so much for that , because I think that that is something that is so . It is something that happens right , and it is something that , where it can be , you know , you don't you . In marriage , you think , oh , you shouldn't be embarrassed by any anything and everything should be fine . But there are times when it's like you know , we did that , I didn't really enjoy it , it didn't really make me feel comfortable . Can we maybe not do that ? Or I'm not ready for that now . So I am so glad that you like touched on that and really explained that and just gave women permission to be like you know , just opening up and talking about it , and that actually is a great example of intimacy , right , that you can have that conversation .

Speaker 1 40:01

And I'm sure a lot of women don't necessarily think that their husband wants to see that real part of them , but he does . He wants the real you , he wants the authentic you . He doesn't want the lubricated or he doesn't . You don't have to always be on for him Like . He wants you fully and you as you , as you are , because that's who he fell in love with you as you as you are , because that's who he fell in love with exactly .

Speaker 2 40:35

No , that's so important , it's it . It's something , too , that we as women we have to like tell ourselves that probably every single day , like my husband actually means it when he tells me I love , that , he loves me . And my husband actually means it when he tells me that my body is beautiful , even though I don't think it is . And you know , it's like , yeah , we have to constantly remind ourselves of that . But , guy , like ladies , your husband's not lying to you . He loves you and he really does . And once he wants you and you might not , you know , might not do strip teases in lingerie , and that's okay . Or you right now might not do that , but maybe you , in five years , stir a lot of work and healing and loving between you and your husband . Maybe then you does strip teases in lingerie , but you don't need to let that be something that stops you from just opening up to your husband .

Speaker 1 41:38

Yeah , I think that that .

Speaker 1 41:40

So I just there was a recent Father Mike Schmitz did a homily on divine mercy and in it he talked about our greatest wound being a wound of distrust , right , and so that can be caused from different types of trauma or experiences that we've had , and so I think that , as you're speaking , it just reminded me of you know , we have most of us , probably all of us have some level of distrust , and so we're thinking , oh , he's not happy with me , he's not happy with me , he's not satisfied with me , he's not , you know , but these are just attack , right Of like division .

Speaker 1 42:20

So these thoughts are just attacks from the evil one that are trying to divide you and , like you said , your husband loves you and just believe that and trust that and that is why you're together , just believe that and trust that and that is why you're together . And the more intimacy that you have , the easier it is to really believe that , and then I think it just becomes a lot easier just to be intimate and open . So another thing that comes up is what if and I mean this happens a lot so what if there are different levels of comfort with intimacy or desire ? So how do couples kind of navigate that ?

Speaker 2 43:05

Sure , yeah , when it comes to differing levels of comfort with things , a couple needs to default to the person who's least comfortable . That is out of respect and love for the person who is still like a little further back on the journey , right ? So there's a wonderful book written by Dr Gregory Popcak . It's called Holy Sex . It's

Communication and Comfort in Intimacy

Speaker 2 43:30

a great , you know , just entry point into learning about the goodness and the beauty of sex . And he gives a really good example in the book about . He's talking about different positions and the wife is not comfortable with that position . She doesn't like it . There's just she has lots of feelings about it and just different reasons why she doesn't like it . But the husband really wants to try it and would really like to do it . And in conversation they have this conversation and she's able to open up to the husband and explain this is why it feels uncomfortable to me , this is why I don't want it . You know all of this kind of thing . And then the husband's able to open up and say this is why I'm interested in doing this position , this is why I want to . And they come to terms with the fact that , like , she's still very much uncomfortable with it , even though he has some really beautiful good reason for wanting to try this position , and so they don't . But then , after a period of time I don't remember if it was several months or maybe even years but the wife had really kept this in mind and had brought it to prayer and had recognized that her husband did have some really valid reason for wanting to try this position that he wasn't comfortable with . Her husband did have some really valid reason for wanting to try this position that she wasn't comfortable with , and eventually she did actually come to a point where she was like you know what , let's try it . But they defaulted to her level of comfort and let her take the lead on this because it was something she was not comfortable with yet . And that has to happen because the act of sex is so vulnerable , so vulnerable that we can't let coercion into uncomfortable acts or uncomfortable positions or things like that . We can't let that enter into this vulnerable act , for else the person who is uncomfortable is going to shut down even more , and then it's like you're going to be taking more steps back on the journey , and so for wives who are in the position of being more uncomfortable about certain things , it actually takes some assertion .

Speaker 2 45:53

You need to be very clear and say look , I'm not comfortable with that . I am totally willing to do these things . Maybe it's I'm not comfortable with kissing your neck , I don't know , but I'm willing to kiss you on the lips and I'm willing to kiss you on the cheek and other places . I'm just not comfortable with kissing your neck right now . Right , and that has to be OK . The husband in that situation cannot coerce or require her to kiss his neck . He has to be all right with that , his neck . He has to be all right with that .

Speaker 2 46:34

And so you know I think this is something that the more uncomfortable person will often be kind of afraid to say something or will just kind of , you know , just be on the more meat side about the situation because of the discomfort . And so this is again where bravery is necessary that if you're trying to get more comfortable with sex , then at this point you cannot do things you're uncomfortable with , because it's only going to make you more uncomfortable with sex as a whole . And so it's important that you communicate the things that you are comfortable with . You know , maybe , again , maybe it's like positions , you know , maybe you're you're comfortable with missionary , um , but but you don't like the idea of a position that's more upright . Or or you you like man on top , but you're not comfortable with women on top . You know something like that .

Speaker 2 47:24

I think there's a lot of discomfort with certain positions that happen . You've got to say it out loud and then that has to be respected . And if it's not respected , then you know you as the person who are who's uncomfortable with that . You have to stop the act at that point and you say , look , this has to be respected . This is a boundary I have put down and this is very important to me , that we respect this . So either we need to stop right now or we need to take a step back , and I need you to respect my position on my feelings about this position . Or you know this , or whatever .

Speaker 1 48:03

That's so good and that gives people that is women language and like a way to express that , because I think that that comes up a lot within the act . And so just knowing that it's okay to stop and say like I'm not comfortable with this , and knowing that sometimes , if we push through , you know that's horrible , it's not helpful , pushing through is not gonna help . Yeah , it's just gonna deepen that you know anxiety and that the desire not to do the act , not to have sex with your husband , because you're having to look forward to it , because and you're going to be like , oh , do we have to do that thing that I didn't like , that you know . So I think , like you were saying , be bold , brave , speak up and let him know , because , honestly , he doesn't know if you don't tell him . Right , it's like he won't know if you don't tell him and he'll just think it's fine . So being able to speak up is a gift to yourself , but it's also a gift to him , so that he doesn't .

Speaker 1 49:07

You know , oftentimes they don't want to do something that's going to make you super uncomfortable because they love you and this is a loving act and so by telling him that then you're just going to enjoy having sex more and and that strengthens the intimacy between you because you've been open and honest , and then it just helps your relationship in general . I think absolutely , yeah . So just before I tell everybody , how do you tell everybody where they can find you and any resources you have ? Is there anything else that you want my listeners to know ? Or do you have anything else to offer couples as their um , like any other tips as couples are trying to maybe just even have those nightly moments together after the kids go to bed without alcohol ? Any tips and tricks that you have in that regard , all any tips and tricks that you have in that regard ? Yeah , definitely .

Speaker 2 50:12

You know .

Speaker 2 50:13

One tip and this is just going to sound so canned , but honestly it's tried and true and it works

Dating Your Spouse Without Alcohol

Speaker 2 50:27

is just switching the liquid , you know , switching it to tea or switching it to a mocktail or some special fun drink .

Speaker 2 50:30

That can be helpful as well , right , if you just have something that is really set aside for that time with your spouse as a special so-and-so or something that you have . Another thing is you know that time that you're spending together , that is , it's a date , whether or not it like it's not a date outright , but that you are dating your spouse when you're just sitting chatting about your day and whatever . And so I think something that we need to reframe is what a date is and when a date can happen . And a lot of times it's like , oh yeah , well , the only time I see my husband is after the kids go to bed and then we can just sit and chat for a little bit . Well , there's a lot of underrated ways to date your spouse . One way is what if , instead of staying up a little bit later , you just got up a half hour earlier and you had a date at 5 am Again ?

Speaker 2 51:32

with tea or coffee Not with alcohol at that time , right . And then now you've put alcohol completely off the table here in this opportunity to chat and get to know each other . If you have younger kids , I think one of the best places to date yourself is on the park bench , because you take your kids to the park , they go and play with the other kids that are there , and you're just sitting on the park bench watching your kids and chit chatting about your day . Going for a walk can be helpful , right , something that's distracting the kid , you know , just going .

Speaker 2 52:08

I think another one that can be really helpful again this is with younger kids , because I have younger kids , right is going to the zoo or something similar , because they're , like , very interested in the animals and like seeing what's there , or like a children's museum too . That can be a great place to have that connection time with yourself , because , yeah , okay , animals , animals are cool . But , like , you're probably not quite as interested as your six-year-old in the giraffes , right , and so your six-year-old can go be excited about the giraffes and watch them eat leaves for 10 minutes while you and your husband sit and chat on the bench that's sitting right there , because zoos have a lot of benches um they do and I think it's for reason .

Speaker 2 52:51

I think it's for husband and wife to just know each other more . But just like reframing that opportunity to connect that that is not the only opportunity to connect . That time after your kids go to bed it might be the most convenient , I will give you that . But we're not looking for convenience here . We're looking for prioritization of something that's really important and dating your spouse , getting to know them , living in that . You know that intimacy , that deep intimacy . That is a priority and we need to make it a priority . And so you know something that the reason I suggested getting up early is that's actually something that my husband and I started doing about a year ago . It took us a long time to get into a groove of it , but we get up early . We get up about an hour before the kids get up and we just sit and chat for about a half hour and then we go get ready for the day and I have a cup of tea and we just figure out what's going on with our day . We talk about the prior day Because a lot of times at night I am way too tired to actually even open up and connect or I'm too stressed out from the day , and I think that's where alcohol comes in .

Speaker 2 54:08

A lot too , it've got , we've had a very high stress day and we feel that need to bring ourselves down and relax , and so if you're connecting first thing in the morning , you haven't had the stress of the day yet and hopefully you had a good night's sleep and so actually you're feeling the least stressed that you're gonna be all long and so you don't need that helper in relaxation . Another thing that I wanted to mention about alcohol and this can be particularly helpful for those of you who , just you know , having a little bit of alcohol is fine in your life and it's not something that you want to completely give up . But you're just recognizing I need to take a step back from it , and maybe after this conversation you're like wow , I really need to take a step back from it . In my intimate life especially Is when you have a glass of wine . There really is , there is that relaxation effect in it and it brings you into a very open and vulnerable state , and I think it can actually be very helpful for us to take note what that really feels like , what being in that open and vulnerable space really feels like , and maybe even jotting down some feelings that you had after having that glass of wine and really like you , you know , and just being as honest as you can be , like , oh I think my husband looks sexier after I have a glass of right right , and and just jotting down or or just cognitively thinking what those feelings are , how your body is feeling , because your body changes as well .

Speaker 2 55:49

Um , how much much looser are your muscles feeling , or are you more comfortable moving your body in different ways ?

Speaker 2 55:57

Because when we can notice what alcohol really does to us , we can actually bring ourselves to that point without the help of alcohol and we can just work on getting that comfortability with our body .

Speaker 2 56:16

That's a really common one is that alcohol will just , it'll help us be more comfortable . You see people right at a club or a bar . They're more comfortable like dancing and moving their body a lot of ways because the alcohol is getting them in that comfortability . And so maybe that means doing some body work , doing some just really aware stretching and movement of your body in like a prayerful way that you're just like getting to know your own body , getting to know your hips and your legs and your arms and your breasts more , so that you're more comfortable moving them in front of your husband and without alcohol , right ? So you know , I think that we can learn , we can actually learn from the use of a glass of wine , and we can learn some ways that we can be more comfortable in our own body and as well as like be more comfortable just around our husband and the way that we speak and the way that we just interact and things like that .

Speaker 1 57:17

Well , those are some really awesome tips , Ellen . Thank you so much . So much good stuff there . I really appreciate it .

Speaker 2 57:27

Oh .

Speaker 1 57:27

I'm happy to share . Yeah , so we have to wrap up just for the sake of time , but please tell my listeners where they can find you and any resources that you have that could benefit them . I mean , you've provided so much amazing information on the podcast today and I'm just so grateful for you , but let them know where they can find out even more , because I know they're going to want to .

Speaker 2 57:51

Absolutely so . The first place to find me is wherever you listen to podcasts . You're already listening to a podcast , so you can find me on the current app that you are using . My podcast is charting toward intimacy . It's toward , not towards . Don't put an S on there , because sometimes search functions don't find it . Hindsight is 2020 , naming my podcast , that's for sure , but Charting Toward Intimacy that's the name of my podcast . Vines in Full Bloom is my company name , so Vines in Full Bloom .

Speaker 2 58:26

You can find the courses and the coaching that I do .

Speaker 2 58:30

I'm on Instagram at charting toward intimacy as well .

Speaker 2 58:34

I have a course specifically on orgasms for Catholic women , for women who rarely or never have experienced sexual pleasure , and it's all about really like more than just the physical aspect the physical , mental , psychological and spiritual aspects of sexual pleasure and the goodness of it and why it's worth looking for . And I also have a brand new course brand spanking new , if you're listening to this podcast in real time called the Catholic Sex Course for Women , and it's really just a dive into where we , as women , need to like , feel when it comes to sex and intimacy and understanding like really what sex is , why we need it , and then learning some mindset shifts that we might need to make from a history of a difficult , you know , relationship with sex whether that was purity of a difficult you know relationship with sex , whether that was purity culture side , or you know more that open sex culture , and then you know how to integrate that into our relationship with our husband , communication , things like that . So you can find all of that on my website , mindswithpulledbloomcom , with that on my website findsofthefullbloomcom .

Speaker 1 59:54

Thank you so much , and I will leave links to some of that in my show notes so that it'll make it easy for people to find you and find your amazing podcast . Ellen , thank you so much for the work that you are doing . First and foremost , I know that it's going to help so many Catholic women and just having this conversation I know that it's going to help so many Catholic women and just having this conversation I know , has been very enlightening for me as well , and I know it will be for others . So thank you so much for being here . Thanks for having me .

Speaker 1 1:00:22

Well , that does it for this episode of the Catholic Sobriety Podcast . I hope you enjoyed this episode

Catholic Sobriety Podcast - Episode Wrap-Up

Speaker 1 1:00:33

and I would invite you to share it with a friend who might also get value from it as well , and make sure you subscribe so you don't miss a thing . I am the Catholic Sobriety Coach , and if you would like to learn how to work with me or learn more about the coaching that I offer , visit my website , thecatholicsobrietycoachcom . Follow me on Instagram at the Catholic Sobriety Coach . I look forward to speaking to you next time and remember I am here for you . I am praying for you . You are not alone .