Catholic Subriety and Faith Journey

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome to the Catholic Subriety Podcast , the go-to resource for women seeking to have a deeper understanding of the role alcohol plays in their lives , women who are looking to drink less or not at all for any reason . I am your host , christy Walker . I'm a wife , mom and a Joyfield Catholic , and I am the Catholic Subriety Coach , and I am so glad you're here . My guest today is Paige Ryan . Paige is a talented home designer , former HDTV star , an author and a Catholic convert . She's also a fellow woman in recovery . I have been so looking forward to this conversation and I honestly just want to jump right in . So , paige , thank you so much for being here .

Speaker 2 0:53

Christy , I'm so delighted that we got to meet and I've been looking forward to this conversation too . We took a lot of boxes before we even start talking , so I'm excited yeah so I love research and I did a lot of research on you .

Speaker 1 1:07

Just not a lot . That sounds kind of creepy .

Speaker 1 1:09

So I listened to a couple of podcasts . I have your book revived and renovated your newest book but I understand you're working on another one . And then we kind of got connected on Instagram too . My friend , amy Brooks , was like I think she tagged me in one of your posts and was like you should connect with Paige , and I was like sure , because , honestly , I've been sober for a really long time and it's very rare that I meet Catholic women in recovery and I know there's tons of us out there . So it sounds completely ridiculous , but I don't think it's something that we talk a lot about . So I'm so excited for this conversation . When I was doing research , I saw on your website something that struck me , something that you said , and you said that God has guided me a bit of a broken misfit on a really beautiful and abundant journey . So I would just love to start there . Can you tell us more about your journey ?

Speaker 2 2:16

Oh my gosh . Well , is this a five hour podcast ?

Speaker 1 2:19

No , I know the cliff note version I know , I know .

Speaker 2 2:23

It's the cliff note . I mean the cliff note says that faith was strong several generations ago in my family , but it wasn't there anymore . A and B I just came out of the womb of very highly sensitive , emotional , spiritually hungry human being and so that combination of it wasn't there and I really needed something . So I spent a lot of time seeking and searching for all kinds of things that to comfort myself and just ended up at age 22 in multiple 12-step programs . First , as we joke around in recovery , I'm in the food and the beverage program . I cannot moderate with food or alcohol and there's other things . I only moderate with a lot of boundaries and a lot of spiritual work .

Speaker 2 3:06

Very compulsive person and impulsive and just somebody that has had to really work , just really work on myself , and so those programs , that recovery , really led me to the Lord .

Speaker 2 3:16

I can remember specifically not looking for church , not looking for , certainly not looking for the Catholic Church and I just my husband and I were , you know , we were in Europe going to churches as we do , and I have this . I don't know why this story just came to me , but because it rarely makes it into my conversion story , but I did have this clear sense of the Lord saying it has been me guiding you in those church basements , in those 12-step meeting rooms , in this journey to find recovery which , by the way , there's many people that come to recovery rooms and still don't find it . So I feel like extraordinarily fortunate to have , a survive , b found recovery and three , you know , being able to be willing to stick with it because it is a daily reprieve . So just meeting him , faceless , nameless , buildingless , and then over time he really revealed himself to me and even revealed myself to myself , like I came to know myself only through sobriety and in getting better . So that's a Clifnode's version , lots of other stuff , but I know we'll get to it .

Speaker 1 4:13

Yeah , so that's great and I love hearing that story because I have your book Revived and Renovated . It's a new one and it reminded me I actually highlighted a passage in there when you were talking about that you were hungry for something , that you were searching for something , and it was God that you were trying to fill that with . You said in your book , in the recovered section , you said I came to know God through my utter brokenness and due to being a sensitive young person who felt that deep emptiness . I now know was a God-sized hole , and I tried to fill that hole with many things food , alcohol , spending , relationships and various dysfunctional behaviors . And I think so many of us can relate . And we look around our world today and I don't know about you , I'm sure you see it in the rooms and also just in the world in general people are seeking for something and they're just trying to fill it with stuff , with creation , with things and or numb . And it always reminds me of this .

Speaker 1 5:21

My favorite quote from John Paul , the second it's he said he spoke it at World Youth Day , but I think it's so pertinent to all of us . He said it is Jesus , in fact , that you seek when you dream of happiness . He is waiting for you when nothing else satisfies you . He is the beauty to which you are so attracted . It is he who provoked you with that thirst for fullness that will not let you settle for compromise , and I just see that so much , and just that snippet of your story that you said , like we're just trying to to fill that hole with everything . And then , once we find it , we wake up and we're like , oh , that's what I was missing , that's what I needed . It doesn't make everything perfect , but at least you have the solution , and that gives you the tools to turn to the creator instead of creation , I think .

Speaker 2 6:17

I think and I'm late to faith and sort of a biblical idiot , and I have not a theologian , but from where I stand , having had my journey , you can reduce the Gospels to we were really , really hungry and God fed us .

Speaker 2 6:31

We were profoundly hungry and , by the way , for thousands of years we looked to eat in many different ways that didn't satisfy , and then the Lord found a way to feed us . And first of all , if you read scripture , there's so much about looking to be satisfied , trying to feed ourselves , trying to find spiritual food , physical food , of course , spiritual food . The Lord wants to feed us so badly , and so I think that we can really understand that allegory of the spiritual food being not just nourishing but essential to a good life , to peace . I think we see it in a totally different way . So many I just that came to mom and you said that and it's sad for some of us that just weren't given it as children , you know . I mean we just didn't have it and so we had to find it another way , and that's really my story .

Speaker 1 7:12

Yeah Well , and some of us , like me , were given it and rejected it in a way , because I'm a revert , and so sometimes we don't realize the treasure that we have , because brokenness and other things happen , and so then we lose trust and we rely on ourselves , and so even those of us who are given it sometimes don't even know , we forget , like , how to use it and have and to have that childlike faith . And I am always in awe of people who , like you , who haven't really grown up with a faith yet , hunger for it and thirst for it , and you approach it in this beautiful childlike way and just accept it into your , your being and and just share that with others , which I think is beautiful too , because that's how we glorify God and that's what he's asking us to do really .

Speaker 2 8:06

I'm not sure why God made me this way , but I'm really not ashamed of my story and I keep getting asked to share it and I , you know , I think you know there's parts of it that are not very pleasant and kind of ugly , and it's ongoing . I mean it's ongoing . I you know I'm going to have two years of sobriety this July . I have fallen out , fallen in , fallen away in my journey of recovery many times and I think also being cross addicted . There's sometimes this balance of different things . This thing's going well , but I've kind of like playing whack-a-mole sometimes in my recovery and so I'm not ashamed to say it because I feel like that's , that's just my story and I wish I could say I got a 30 year chip , but I don't . And furthermore , I think you know , in defense of my parents , they didn't have it to give me .

Speaker 2 8:47

I was baptized , actually in Orthodox Church , but there's just so many combinations of factors that made me say absolutely not , I'm out , and it's a lot . And I learned in recovery . You know that this is on me and that where what happens with what I was given and all that I was provided for me and the result , that's really on me and then , just like it's on me now to continue my recovery and to find the resources I need . So again , and I look back and I do think of . I think a lot about how to be passed on faith , but recognizing that I can do everything right for my own children , every single thing , quote , unquote right . I can have every Novena and devotional and Catholic piece of art and we can never miss mass and we can go to daily , and still my children's path is their own Exactly , and that's the ultimate surrender that it is their own . I'm still gonna probably try to do everything right , because I had a real zest to pass it on .

Speaker 2 9:39

And yet I also know they'll never have my experience of finding it in a very , very well . No , they're not gonna have a crazy conversion story , because they just won't . I'll say but I mean like this idea of having it be brand new and coming to it in late in life . But their journey is their own and as parents we don't get to direct that like a puppet .

Speaker 1 9:59

I know , unfortunately right . We're like pouring all of this in and trying to , like you said , do all the right things . And then I do a women's Bible study and I'll hear from these women who have adult children who have gone on their own ways , and I'm like , oh my gosh , please stop telling me this story . I just want to hear , like and you raise them , and then they stayed Catholic and they married Catholic and then their grandkids are , but it doesn't . You know , it doesn't always work that way . Like you said it's , we just do our best and pray .

Speaker 2 10:30

So we're best and pray and understand that life is long and that sometimes I mean just even the testimony that you know that it took me so long but it still happened . And somebody was saying someone really must have been praying for you with a lot of patients , people that are probably dead , you know what I mean . Like I don't think there's like the living or even new to pray for what I have now , but other generations they were just prayers and I just think , gosh , I mean that's that's a hope right , that in that , maybe not in our lifetime , but to not give up , the devil would love for us to give up on prayer . That's like that's such a victory for him . Yeah , but that's yeah .

Personal Journey of Recovery and Faith

Speaker 1 11:06

Absolutely so you touched on your recovery a little bit and your faith journey and you said that you were in 12 step programs . I've heard you say that 12 step programs were actually your church for a long time . Can you explain that ?

Speaker 2 11:24

Sure . So , as I mentioned before , I was baptized in the Orthodox Church in Philadelphia and then when I left home for college I didn't even have any remote interest in finding it or looking for it . There was like a New Orthodox Church . I had a connection to family and cousins and I was like really longing for that like a home . But there's something about something happened where religion just became so unpalatable , wasn't interested . There were some things that happened where I was like I want to get as far as I was like I got to find that whatever that familial tie I have find somewhere else . And so I was a spiritual seeker , was interested in sort of the spiritual side of things . But I had a very long new age chapter and surely they think that was why I perhaps was open to over readers anonymous and alcoholics anonymous .

Speaker 2 12:06

When I went to my first meetings and I heard the God , I thought , oh my goodness , I can't . It can't be the God I knew as a child . It's got to be totally rewritten and different and a God made in my own image . And I think that was a comfortable place for me to be . And I always say that in 12 step programs were given the option to be anonymous and like we feel better about that because it's embarrassing and whatever the truth is .

Speaker 2 12:27

God's anonymous , the God is not , because God wants us so badly to be whole that he has people that I believe he . I believe he created and wrote the 12 steps . I believe it's unbelievably not only Christian but very Catholic , because he wants so much for people to be whole , even people who will never say his name , never step into church , never acknowledge him , and that's okay with him , and I know that as Catholics , like the way we're revere and worship and praise God is so important . But I but I've seen with my own eyes people who just are never going to ever get across the threshold into church still receive healing and receive wholeness , because that is what happens first , that that's so they're , they haven't even any chance of going any further and that's you know anyway .

Speaker 2 13:05

So that , though it was my first church and it was very loving and welcoming and just this idea that I had never the real , the seat of the idea that the God loves us is with us and even he's a very mundane basic . So of course he cares about the worst famine , poverty and terrible tragedies and all these kinds of things , but he actually cares about you and what you put in your mouth , and that was a profound understanding that I had to take on if I was going to believe that I was worth , you know , getting a great job and praise God . I saw and I believe that he cared and I believe that there was a power to be accessed , greater than myself . In my generation I think we're probably a similar age I was taught to be the higher .

Speaker 2 13:41

I am the higher power , I am the superpower . I'm supposed to get a great athletic career and I'm supposed to get a great job . And then I was supposed to get a great house in the suburbs and it was all on my own , power alone and actually . But I was literally dying inside . And so this idea that I could rest in , lean on and draw from a higher power , greater than myself , that , to me , was my first spiritual experience .

Speaker 1 14:07

Yeah , I think I was thinking about this the other day too , because I was talking to one of my coaches and we were talking about , like myself , reliance and how it's taken me a long time to trust .

Speaker 1 14:17

But then I was like , of course , of course I was relying on myself because that is what our culture was saying , that's what everyone is saying all the time , like you can figure it out , grab yourself help book .

Speaker 1 14:29

I got into new agey stuff too and it was all about me , me , me . How am I going to manipulate whatever situation , and not like necessarily in a bad way , but how am I going to control things in a way that I will make happen what I want to happen ? And then , when things don't happen that way , then it's like , oh well , okay , I need to work harder , I need to do something else . And we are just constantly bombarded with that like self , self , self , self journey , self introspection and everything . And at least for me , and maybe for you to , it was when I was finally and it took a long time , many , many , many years of spiritual journey and my sobriety journey to finally let go and then experience that freedom of like it's not on you , it's not all up to you and it was so freeing for me because that was such a big weight that I was , that I was carrying around and I didn't even realize it .

Speaker 2 15:37

Yeah , yeah , no , it is . I mean that you're right about the focus on self , which is totally the devil's work , because , whether it's the positive or negative , the constant focus on self makes you literally impotent for so many other things to serve others , to be of service , to be part of the kingdom . I mean , and I and yeah , I'm a perfect example of such a self focused I mean I gosh , I , I there's so many examples I could bring up but very , very self focused my own , my own achievement , my own glory , my own grades , my own path . And then I feel like , when you're talking , I was thinking I feel like we need to shut that down because the Lord actually does have a plan for us , but it's probably not that . It might be that , but we're not supposed to , it's not up to us . And so I really come up against this many times .

Speaker 2 16:21

I didn't think I could have children . I had a totally different idea for my life . I totally wanted to be a famous TV star , even in sub writing and TV career , and I felt like this is it was . The Lord wants to be rich and famous TV person and you know that was not his plan . And it's so interesting that I feel like I constantly renewing of the mind , of kind of erasing or blurring out , like my blurry background , blurring out these visions . For what I think I need to make happen and that is the crux of the New Age religion is that you can manipulate the material and the spiritual world for your own game . Now you can't , sorry , yeah , you can't , and also that's dangerous territory and it's not a relationship . It's , it's not a relationship .

Speaker 1 17:02

So yeah , yeah , and you hit on it too , like even as a believer , like I've always believed in God , it was just like , well , maybe he isn't , maybe he can't do this for me , or maybe he won't do it for me . So I'm going to figure out a way with all these crystals , with all this mumbo jumbo , with the horoscopes , whatever I the feng shui , I'll make it happen , because he's probably super busy and can't do that for me right now . So that's fine , god , I'll figure it out . But you're right , I mean all those closed doors , unanswered prayers , the protection that I look back and realize like how God was protecting me , like from certain things . It was all put in place there to get me where I am now and where I'll be in the future . It's just equipped me and encouraged me and and I see that you know with you too and just hearing your story , I love it .

Speaker 1 17:59

When I was reading your book too , you talked about how you were not interested but you felt that pursuing you , felt God , you felt Jesus pursuing you , pursuing you and I I completely relate to that , even in those times when I was like kind of shut the door to it and I was like he's not interested in me .

Speaker 1 18:17

I don't , you know , it's fine , I'm , I'm fine by myself , I'll figure it out . But that pursuing and pursuing , and then you gave an example of like it wasn't like a burning bush , but it was like this ember that was inside of you being kindled and kindled . And when I give talks and things I say this all the time . There was like this flicker of a flame of the Holy Spirit inside of me , and every time I would like turn and go that direction . It would get brighter , you know . And then and that's kind of what you are saying in here too , can you ? Is there like a certain moment or anything , when you just felt that fire just like burst ? And it has it all always been like this kind of slow rule .

Speaker 2 20:08

That's a great question . I mean , part of my journey is I'm very stubborn , willful and slow and so I feel like the Lord pulled out all the

Personal Spiritual Journey and Faith Transformation

Speaker 2 20:16

stops . I mean I found myself at Magigoria randomly when I considered myself pretty much an atheist , slash pagan . I married a lapsed Catholic from a very devout family and thank God he was lapsed , so he would never would have made it . You know , there's just so many moments . God put so many people in my life .

Speaker 2 20:32

I'm in so many different ways and so I felt like I think of it as almost like a pilot light that was there and I could see it , but I was very willing to ignore it for a long time because I had so much kind of antagonism for the faith too . I mean , I think back about like I grew up in the generation where we had the church lady on SNL and church people sucked , like they were horribly uninformed and unsophisticated . And I went to Brown University I'm an Ivy Leagueer . Like I've got , I've worldly , like I've been around you know what I mean Like step down , like I'm not interested in your small town church BS , and I hate to be that brutally odd , but that is what I took on and felt I really did experience that , this idea that church people are small and uneducated , and I still battle with that , even sometimes in my own family , with this idea that the church is anti-science , whatever Like that . It's been in the culture , reduced to something , just , it's been reduced , reduced , reduced . But the church has survived and also being Catholic has been so humbling , rcia has been so humbling . There's so much I don't know . There's a profound amount that I don't know and as it's revealed to me , I'm more and more like , oh my gosh , and that pilot light is a full-blown campfire now .

Speaker 2 21:41

And even like the book you're referencing , revived and Renovated , is actually my second book . My first book I wrote when I was discerning , becoming Catholic and it's nothing to do with faith but everything to do with faith , and we can get to that later . But this book I co-wrote with a woman named Victoria Durstock . She's Baptist . She had the Bible almost memorized as we wrote the book and I was like , oh my gosh , this is an incredible tool that you have that I want . So writing that book with her encouraged me to read the Bible through Bible in the earth . My father , mike , for the first time in my life , at like 44 or something like that . I was old and I mean then I'm like , oh my God . And so when you what you even said , when did the light really go off ?

Speaker 2 22:16

When I read the Bible for the first time , I feel like it was like campfire . It was like , oh my gosh , there's so much here , by the way , ps . So much here about sobriety , abstinence and recovery . Yeah , so much . And I'm actually reading the Bible again and now I'm keeping a journal about all the things related to sobriety and recovery , because there's so much and I'm still deep in the early Old Testament and there's so much . So I feel like that's that . You know , the Lord had to be patient and be like okay , first just the church a little bit for years , then Catholic school a little bit , then our CIA , you know , then we'll lay in scripture with this messenger I'm sending , you know . So anyway , I'm kind of like Lord , what's next , like what scales are left that you're gonna take from my eyes and what's next .

Speaker 1 23:03

Well , I've been Catholic for 50 years and I'm still learning so many things and like on that journey and I too am right where you are where it's like , oh my goodness , there's so much more to learn and I feel so inadequate in some ways . And then I look back at my journey and think , but look at how far I've come and how much I know , and I love that you brought up scripture First of all . I love your book because I'm not a great reader , like an avid reader , but it's done in . I feel like I'm having coffee with the two of you . I think you're just having this beautiful conversation and I just loved it and it's really easy to read . So somebody is looking for an easy read that is going to just oh , it's just so fulfilling and beautiful to read .

Speaker 2 23:46

That's kind of you and I appreciate that because I have a narrative that that book didn't do that well or that it's like that I didn't do a good job promoting it , because as an author , you're supposed to promote your books . I haven't promoted either of them very well at all and I love the book , and I love the book of Revived and Renovated . I mean , I wanted to . I feel like I told the Lord I want to write a book about my two favorite loves the home and faith , and how they've intersected in my life . And Victoria is such an incredible person and she came up with this idea that we revive the home the Lord provides us . We renovate the home the Lord renovates us , and it's such a perfect allegory in so many ways . Some people just need a little paint job .

Speaker 2 24:22

Some people just need like some new lighting fixtures . Some people need to be taken down to the studs , and I consider myself in a bit in that category and anyway . So I appreciate your words on that .

Speaker 1 24:33

Yeah , yeah , I love that you brought up scripture because I can tell you that , like my spiritual journey was pretty slow also and then it got more involved when we sent our sons to Catholic school or twins . But it wasn't until I co-coordinated a Bible study at my parish and we're into our seventh year of that Bible study and I will tell you the Bible is not just like this old , dusty book that doesn't apply to our lives , like you were saying . It is so applicable to our lives in all areas and I love that you're taking notes and writing down . Maybe that'll be another book where you're like writing down and doing the scripture , with how it relates to sobriety and recovery , because I think so many times , like you were saying , even you know with your Ivy League education and all of these things , people today are almost afraid to believe because they don't wanna be seen as , like you were saying , uneducated or ignorant or just believing for the sake of believing which , by the way , I did for a long time .

Speaker 1 25:44

People would say , well , why do Catholics do this ? I'm like I don't know , we just do it . But really there's a reason for all of it and that's been the most beautiful journey is figuring that out , and it's the same for scripture . God doesn't just say these things , he's not just talking to the Israelites , he's not just you know , he's speaking into our lives today . This is a love letter for all of us and yeah , and I love it , and yeah , I hope you write a book about that too .

Speaker 2 26:14

I might . I actually I feel like the Lord's like write that down , because there's just so much I mean you can't get . I said this on Instagram the other day . I think people got irritated , but that's okay .

Speaker 2 26:24

You can't get 10 chapters into Genesis without hearing how alcohol and getting drunk has ruined families for generations and maybe not ruined but set path brokenness into generations . I mean , you're talking about Noah who literally got drunk the first thing he did when he came back and then I think it was a lot . You know this kind of , and then sort of the progeny or the offspring of these sort of drunkenness encounters or whatever is like it has , you know the Lord doesn't come out and say that was wrong . You know lots . Daughters shouldn't have had incest with their drunken dad . You know what I mean . But then if you look at sort of like that they founded a land that has a name that has , you know just Moab . You know if there's , we can read the tea leaves or read the after effects of some of these choices and I just I think that we , I mean like gosh , I mean it's kind of like if you know , you know , you think I mean you develop a reputation for being like anti-drinking and anti-fun Okay fine , I'm really not , but I am thinking about the damage that it brings to families . That , frankly , I wish I knew . Well , I wish I knew because what I knew was that if you're grown up and sophisticated , you drank , you drank a lot and you knew a lot about drinking and you went out a lot and you're really social and that made you cool and that made you interesting and that's how you're gonna meet other interesting , cool people and that was my theology , I mean that was it you know , and it feels really good and I get to be this person and that's for me .

Speaker 2 27:47

It was . I'm this person who I really liked being when I'm drunk . Now , unfortunately , I went way beyond that to be somebody that nobody liked , but the drunk page I just really liked her and then also have the duality of the person . The page who went to food is somebody who wasn't with people , so that was like it was kind of like both sides to two different kinds of addictions . But yeah , no , the scripture has been , oh my gosh , so edifying and I don't know where the willingness to read the Bible came from because , as I said , I can count decades where I didn't ever think of it or open one or ever consider that it could have value . And now I can't go a day without opening it .

Speaker 1 28:22

I don't want to you know , mm-hmm , yeah , I don't either . It's so applicable . And Father Mike also makes it very easy to understand , cause you can read the Bible and be like what the heck did I just read ? What does that even mean ? So that's where Bible in the Year has been very helpful for me as well , cause even doing Bible study for a long time , there's still things that are just like I don't get that , and I love how he notes so many times Like it's just full of brokenness , like we don't have to shy away from it , we don't have to be like .

Speaker 1 28:57

You know , this is such a happy ending Cinderella story , like I mean , we do have a very happy ending , but there's still a lot going on . It hasn't ended , cause Jesus is coming back , but we can see the redemption , but we also see the struggle and how God never gave up on his people and he's never gonna give up on us . So , and he kept just giving them chances , just like he gives us chance after chance after chance . So he'll never , he'll never give up on us , and I think that's so beautiful .

Speaker 2 29:30

I think also we're meant to see ourselves . I mean , I really do . We're meant to see ourselves in all these characters . And the first time I didn't really get that cause I was just trying to keep up and like try to learn it . But the second time I do see myself . I actually see myself in Faro , an exodus . I don't know if this makes any sense , but Faro gets sent the plagues and like all the plagues are like this stinks , but okay , I'm willing to live with it because I don't want to give in . And then he , the God , sense more and more and bigger plagues , and to me that's a lot about my life before recovery . I'm willing to live with like losing a job and like humiliating myself and losing my wallet and losing my dignity and having financial complications , and I'm willing to live with a lot of problems that came until I wasn't , you know , and so for me I anyway . I think in scripture there's so many chances to identify and if you can't keep reading you'll find somebody .

Speaker 1 30:17

Yeah , well , and when you were just talking about that does make sense . The Faro analogy makes sense Because then I think about , like , whether it was the frogs or whatever , and Moses is like well , when do you want them out ? And he's like tomorrow . Like he doesn't say immediately , he's like tomorrow . And it kind of reminds me of that quote from St Augustine Lord , make me chase , but not yet . So we're all like we have that willingness and until we're really willing , we're gonna still kind of like struggle with it and muddle through , but then , when we're willing , we finally tell God like this is , I'm ready . It doesn't mean that we won't slip and we won't fall , but we will have an awareness , we will learn from it and we can move forward hopefully , hopefully from there , cause I always say it's like a learning thing , even with my clients . I'm like you know what , if you have a slip , if you break commitment to yourself or whatever , okay , yeah , that's a bummer and that sucks , but it's not for nothing , because you will not drink the same way you did before that , because you just have , like this , extra awareness . So even those missteps , even if somebody just totally goes off the wagon , it's , they still have some awareness to it . They still have those tools that they built up and that they have in their toolbox . They just have to dust it off and open it up and take them out again , but it's never for nothing and it can all be redeemed . So you've shared so much about your faith and I love that .

Speaker 1 31:53

But now I'd like to talk a little bit about your design , such your you know , a design expert and everything . And I will tell you , when my husband and I were first married , nobody would walk into our home and even know that we were Christians . Like there was , like maybe a dusty Bible on the bookshelf somewhere , somewhere , but nobody would have mistaken us for Christians when they walked into our home . However , over the years I mean you can see in my office , because we have camera our whole home and we didn't do it intentionally , it's been an organic process , if you will , of just placing holy reminders around ourselves constantly , and so now people can't help it . When they come into our home they're like you , must they know that we're not just Christian , we're actually Catholic , because there's a lot of things there .

Speaker 1 32:42

But I really appreciate your approach because I watched a ton of HGTV , especially

Design and Faith in Creating Home

Speaker 1 32:49

when we lived in our little first home , vixar Upper Home , and I was trying to make something out of whatever it was and I watched a ton of it . But following you on Instagram and things , I noticed that it's not just about that perfect aesthetic , it's not just about having everything updated and perfect . It's about breathing life into it and making your home a place of comfort in whatever season your family is in , and that just I think that's so beautiful and it resonates strongly with me . And I'm just wondering is that something that has always been that way for you ? Has your Catholic faith played a role in the way that you think about design now ?

Speaker 2 33:44

Well , I would say both my recovery and my conversion have really changed the way I think about the home . I grew up knowing the home was important , because my parents , our home , was very important . I think I heard a lot about how they grew up . My dad grew up in a row house . My mom grew up in a little teen house with one bedroom and three daughters and they really want bigger and better . And our home was important and what they put into it . They're very , very careful . We had years or we had empty rooms so my parents saved up for .

Speaker 2 34:12

So I got the message that the home was important and I got the message also which I think is a very American message that you are the home Like when people come over . That's how well you've done in life , that's what you have to say , that's what your identity is , is like whatever you got . Do you have nice furniture or not ? Do you have what do you have ? And I feel like in my conversion or sorry , in my recovery I learned a different resonance , a different purpose of the home , because between meetings I was either at work or I was at home . But even if I worked 12 hours a day , I could do a lot of damage at home If I with alcohol and food and spending and God only knows what in my house and I understood the home just had a different resonance . It needed to be literally like a nurturing nest where I was going to read 12-step literature , learn how to pray , which I had never done before . Learn how to meditate , which I'd never done before , which is like a cornerstone of 12th of recovery is prayer and meditation , with not a lot of handbook . Right Like so . I'm literally learning this in that era . I'm calling people on the phone . All my memories of that are in actually my apartment at the time and I had done a lot of damage in that apartment , right Like that's . In that apartment I had learned that I could control my food by drinking a pitcher of gin and tonic , and so when I was like beyond that and trying to get beyond that , I learned the home was now a place to learn to pray and meditate . So what did it have to look like and feel like to allow a total different shift , different things to happen there , and I carry that with me .

Speaker 2 35:37

I just think in our culture we're so confused about what the home is for what we're trying to do . I'm a huge advocate for beauty , yes , and comfort , yes , but we also have to remember the house has so many objectives . The house has a place of ministry , of connection , of building relationship , of teaching , of learning obedience , of discipleship , learning manners , just learning to care for each other , learning to be of service , learning to open the doors and be hospitable , and there's so many things the house I think is could do , can do , you could say , should do . But if we're really , really focused on just making it real pretty number one , we're gonna get annoyed when it gets used for other things .

Speaker 2 36:11

Where interior design has made family life hard . The narrative is the family life makes interior design hard . That's not true . Interior design has made family life hard because interior design says it's best if it goes unused and it stays pristine and it's beautiful . Well , that's not what happens when you have a family . That's not what happens when you entertain , you open your doors . That's not what happens when you say yes to a dog . That's not what happens when you're taking care of an elderly parent and now they're in the living room . That's not what happens . It doesn't look like that , and so I get very hot under collar about this because I think that interior design magazines are trying to project a reality that isn't true for most of us .

Speaker 2 36:48

And I've known people who might've shifted their family life to be in a line with a household that never gets dirty and doesn't , you know , and maybe it had less kids , I don't know . Maybe they just have a different , totally lifestyle because the place and the things have been elevated to be so , so important . So I don't know if that answered the questions , but you did ask me about the faith . One thing I'll add to that long harangue , and I'm sorry , is that the discussion of the domestic church . I mean , in our Catholic faith we hear all the time mass is important , you know , confession is important , the sacraments that do happen in the church are important , but everything else happens in the domestic church , that's a lot it's a lot of time , it's a lot of responsibility .

Speaker 2 37:30

I can tell you , going to Catholic school that's great . I love our Catholic school . It's that's like I'm doing a job . It's our home and our parenting which fills in the 90% that Catholic school doesn't do and we have a great Catholic school . But I feel like the domestic church has a big , big task and I have heard that so much and seen it in our Catholic community and even with my in-laws too , like the role the home plays , so that just takes a different resonance and it just tweaked and altered my views of the home , just being that the home beauty is so important . I don't know , I just throw a lot at you , christy , so I'm sorry .

Speaker 1 38:04

No , that all completely made sense , and I agree . Also , the home is where we do everything all the good , all the hard , all the tears happen , laughing happens , sadness happens , life happens , death happens . The home is just that place of life and living , and so I love that you brought all that up . When you were talking , though , something came into my mind . You were talking about the design perspective , and if you're looking at these shows , or you're looking at magazines and all these perfectly curated rooms that sometimes I joke with my family when people are coming over , I'm like , don't make it look like we live here , get your socks off the couch .

Speaker 1 38:51

But I think if we look at alcohol marketing , right , it gives us this false perspective we are funnier , we can have more fun . Our friends will think that we are more clever , or whatever it is every vacation will be just that much more enjoyable . And it's this false sense of living , because we're numbing the good with the bad , right . So . But alcohol commercials won't tell you that , Nobody tells you that .

Speaker 1 39:28

And so the women that I work with , even though I'm a recovering alcoholic and I identify myself as that and I have no problem with saying that loud and proud , like I said it for a long time and it doesn't bother me at all , but many of the women that I work with that God placed on my heart are those women that are kind of in the middle , like they're noticing it's causing chaos but it's not to a problem yet . And it just makes me so mad when I see like marketing and wine glasses and sweatshirts and memes that are targeting us , saying like you will have this beautiful life and your home will be cleaner and your kids will be nicer and your husband will love you more if you have alcohol , which sounds ridiculous . But if you look at the marketing and TV and commercials and movies , that is exactly what it's saying .

Speaker 2 40:28

Oh , I mean 100% it's . And I think that an even more dangerous message is that this is how you have to get through motherhood Right . The idea , I think when

The Challenges of Motherhood and Materialism

Speaker 2 40:38

you're young it's like everybody's drinking everybody has a , everybody has their drink , that they like . You have to have something you like , but it is your drink right , and I had mine when I was a dirty martini and I made incredible life mistakes under many of those . But now , as a mother , the message is like it's you , you won't , you won't get through it without drinking wine after they go to bed or maybe even before they go to bed . And it's amazing how quickly you slip before after bed to before they go to bed , especially when they go to bed later , like how I watch women say , well , now , I mean it's four or five o'clock and it's nice outside , I can have a glass of Pinot Grigio and I , whatever , I don't know , and I feel like it's , it's , it's .

Speaker 2 41:14

It's this idea that women are weak . It makes me so mad . The women are weak . That motherhood is really hard . Nobody told you about this . It stinks , it's incredible , it's very hard . Do we want a less hard version ? Do we want to skip part of the hard , like I mean on a fundamental human level .

Speaker 2 41:29

I guess yeah we want , we want to skip it , but I think there's always a cost to that . Like , how could we be so naive to think that the easier , softer way is really easier and softer ? It's not . You know , like I don't never forget , somebody said to me if you go home and drink tonight , you will miss something you were meant to know or have or experience or feel or see . Tonight you'll miss it . Every night contains that , by the way , every night of our existence , our gift on our if you can possibly have eaten binge on junk food tonight , you'll miss something You're meant to see or know or feel , or remember we're here . You're a miss it . So if we think about each day of our lives like that , like , is it worth it ? Is it worth doing that ? For every night Are kids , childhood , so you can get through cranky toddlers and you know the chaos of having babies or whatever . Or or mouthy teenagers like , oh my gosh , why did I ever complain about toddlers ?

Speaker 1 42:15

Cause teens are a whole another .

Speaker 2 42:17

Oh my gosh .

Speaker 1 42:20

I agree , well , and and when you were saying that too , it's we are almost resenting , I see this , this resentment towards kids , like there'll be this thing , like , well , my kids are the reason that I drink , or something like that , and that just breaks my heart and and I don't think that it comes from a place that women really think that I think that they maybe they think it's funny or maybe it gives them some kind of connection or community or solidarity . I don't know what it is , because that wasn't something that I dealt with , but I think too , like with design , of making your house , your home , beautiful and doing all these things and making it perfect , and then toddlers come in and they hit the walls with their toys or there's things scattered around their clothes . You can resent that and resent them in a way , because you're like , I just spent all this time doing this , this and this , and now it's all messed up , and this is why we can't have nice things , and that's same with alcohol . It's like , well , I have to drink to cope . I have to drink because they're so loud , I have to drink for all of this , and so I think that's what I love about what you were saying about the home and enjoying it , and there's such a correlation between that perfectionist facade that we try to put on , whether that's making our homes perfect , which is great , by the way .

Speaker 1 43:42

Take pride in your home , make it a beautiful place that you love being in and spending time in and enjoying it with your family , but it needs to be lived in too and experienced . We need to experience all those rooms , experience all the things , because we don't wanna look back and I mean there's enough mom guilt , there's enough , and I think of it too , like maybe I'm on my phone and my 10 year old is saying something to me and I only catch half of it , but I've totally tuned out . And when you do that with alcohol and you do it often like you were saying you're just you're missing out on something that you were meant to see or hear or experience .

Speaker 2 44:27

Yeah , I don't think I've ever made that correlation , this idea that the alcohol advertising portrays life in a certain way and then , like the sort of the home media portrays life and a lifeless life . Frankly , I mean I was just thinking that I gotta stop taking empty videos and pictures of my home because it's such a lie . There's always people here but for some reason , I mean , they're not here during the school day . There's a lot of times when I take the video but and they're also private , so they don't always wanna be in the video . But it's a lie to take video when there's no people in it , but we're so used to it and that showcases furniture better and that showcases spaces better and all that kind of stuff . And yeah , and we're gonna .

Speaker 2 45:01

Each parent , you will be given a chance where your child wants your child ruined something because they don't know about value , they don't know about goods , they don't know about cost , they don't know anything that you're worried about . If someone could tell , I wish I could go back to myself and say your kids don't know anything . So don't get mad at them for putting Sharpie on the chair because they don't know about chairs . They don't know anything . There's no , they don't understand . That has to all be communicated in . By the way , in anger it doesn't get communicated . It's something totally different happens in anger and all of us are given a chance to tell our kids that they matter more than the stuff . You're gonna be given the chance over and over and over again . And I mean , please understand . It's a lasting impact when your child learns that this stuff's more important . And so it recalls the story when my son was two .

Speaker 2 45:45

I had bought this like double white fur chair . I don't even know what I was thinking , but it was in their bedroom when I was thinking it's really soft and cuddly and like I'm like an at-home mom , like I'm at my full strength in motherhood in the snugly at home , like I'm not good at I don't have to play grounds . But I was like read aloud , sit in a chair . I bought this big double white fur chair and we would sit in it at night and read , and I think I had like a four or two and a zero and we could all fit .

Speaker 2 46:11

And then one day I turned around and my two year old or three year old he was between two he had taken a black Sharpie on it and drawn something on it and what came out of my mouth ? What came out of my mouth was hellfire . Okay , it was anger , rage . And I can still in my mind see Crystal clear his sweet little tiny face and looking back at me like , oh my God , like wow . And the shame I had immediately and I feel like it was a . The Lord allowed this unpleasant experience that I had actually had to get rid of the chair because it was so painful . I had such profound regret and pain at having literally in my mind who cares about it ?

Speaker 2 46:50

It wasn't inexpensive chair , it wasn't in the living room , wasn't ruined forever , but the idea that in my mind , that the stuff had really been elevated in my mind and keeping the stuff pristine and I had to learn that lesson that he is more important Number one , he doesn't understand . Number two , he's more important . And that our job is to teach our kids not to sharpie the furniture , that we take care of our things .

Speaker 2 47:11

We are stewards of our goods but that they are more important and we have to do that over time . And we're doing that , by the way , as they ruin the stuff . That is it . If you're gonna live in your home and really use it , there are gonna stain it . That same kid took a knife to our very expensive Crate and Barrel sectional and put a knife right in it . We still have the knife hole . When he was pretending to be a ninja probably a four or five and it was like , thank God I had that sharpie lesson .

Speaker 2 47:34

And , by the way , there's been so many other indications where I could say I don't love it . I keep a blanket on the hole . Now I keep a throw rug on because I would still have the sectional . I don't love it . But you are more important than the things and there's a way , and even sometimes I can get in arguing with people that say that kids need to understand . They need to understand and use it . So how do we convey that you're more important and we have to take care of our stuff and we're gonna use our stuff . And some things have happened out of an accident where I've ruined stuff . I mean there's things that I've done .

Speaker 2 48:03

We're human and when you really use your stuff , you're gonna make mistakes and this stuff is gonna get used . And this whole idea that we need to keep it pristine is from real estate . If you're not selling your house , use your stuff . Use your stuff Exactly , exactly . Live in your home . When you sell , you may have to make it all look brand new , but if you're not selling , where are we in that mode ? But I think that's happened to real estate . I really do .

Speaker 1 48:26

Yeah , I would agree . And social media right Cause a lot of times , like you were saying , we showcase the pretty parts of it that are uncluttered and you can't see the dining room table , maybe that has a few papers or whatever on it , or you can't see that . My twins used to come out and just like dump their toys in our very small living room and then I would clean them up when they took their nap and then they would come out and dump them out again , and it was just a thing that we did . But people don't usually typically take pictures of living rooms like that , but those are some of my most cherished pictures when I look back at those I took tons of pictures and it will be like their toys scattered all over and the cat , and I just love it because it reminds me of those really super fun , sweet moments .

Speaker 1 49:19

And maybe they weren't Facebook worthy Instagram wasn't a thing at the time . Maybe they weren't Facebook worthy at that time , but to me they're so beautiful . Well , I know that you probably have other things to do , but I have so enjoyed our conversation and I would just love it if you would share where people can find you , maybe what's next for you what you have in the works and how people can connect with you .

Speaker 2 49:45

Sure , yeah . So , as I said , revive your Renovated was my second book that I wrote with Victoria , really putting the faith in the home together with scripture and then . But my first book is called Love the House You're In and that's really a lot about the philosophies we've talked about today that you belong in your own home and it's not gonna look like everybody else and it's kind of a journey of self-reflection and it really came about because I realized that homes had been sanitized of faith , of journey , of personality , so that we could all look the same . And that doesn't , that doesn't , that doesn't jive with me . I'm also I spend too much time on Instagram as a compulsive person . I'm well aware I spend too much time on social media , but I am at Page Ryan and Ryan has spelled R-I-E-N and I get us to do talks every once and now in the end , and they're very much like we talked today about recovery , faith , conversion in the home and how it all wraps up together .

Speaker 2 50:35

So , yeah , I love to hear from people . I love to hear about these synchronicities . I'm not for everybody . I mean there's a lot of people that are like , not interested . I want my faith over here and I want my home over here . I just I see it all wrapped up and I think to me every day includes all of those things . Oh yeah . So yeah , I've been delighted to talk to you . I mean , did you , is there any chance you played sports ?

Speaker 1 50:59

I played basketball until high school , and then I did dance for my whole life .

Speaker 2 51:04

Okay , well because I have this like Catholic recovery , sports . Anyway , sometimes when you have like I was an athlete , there's just like people that have all this synchronicity or these things in common and it's like , wow , there's so many worlds opened up . So , yeah , I played basketball .

Speaker 1 51:20

So next time we'll talk about that . Yes , yeah , for sure , and I'm a sports mom , so I love being . I don't know if your kids are involved in sports , but I love being a mom with kids in sports .

Speaker 2 51:31

So that's fun , oh amen . Yes , for fun for me , and I'm so glad I'm sober for that , because that's what I want to do . Yes , yes indeed .

Speaker 1 51:41

Well , thank you so much , Paige , for being here , and I can't wait to talk to you again .

Speaker 2 51:46

Amen Christy , thank you .

Speaker 1 51:48

Well

Catholic Sobriety Podcast Wrap-Up

Speaker 1 51:48

, that does it for this episode of the Catholic sobriety podcast . I hope you enjoyed this episode and I would invite you to share it with a friend , who might also get value from it as well , and make sure you subscribe so you don't miss a thing . I am the Catholic sobriety coach , and if you would like to learn how to work with me or learn more about the coaching that I offer , visit my website , thecatholicsobrietycoachcom . Follow me on Instagram at the Catholic sobriety coach . I look forward to speaking to you next time , and remember I am here for you , I am praying for you , you are not alone .