Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Rescued and Redeemed, a podcast providing hope and encouragement for women in recovery, for those who are wondering if maybe they drink a little too much, and for women who have loved ones who are suffering from addiction or in recovery. I am your host, Christie Walker. I am a joy-filled Catholic wife, mom, business owner and a Catholic life coach, but none of what I just mentioned would have been possible had I not been rescued from my addiction in February of 1997. Okay, everybody, so I am so excited to have Denise Jelenick back on my podcast. 

Speaker 1: She is a grateful convert to Catholicism and a dedicated Catholic health and weight loss coach. Her own journey includes overcoming binge eating, overdrinking and chronic people-pleasing. Now she helps women grow closer to Christ, finding peace and freedom from excess weight and emotional eating. As a Catholic health and weight loss coach, denise teaches her clients how to lose weight while still enjoying the foods they love. She believes in a simple, fun and easy approach to weight loss that will amaze and inspire. She guides her clients in discovering their unique path to maintaining a healthy weight and integrating it into their current life circumstances. Through her Catholic perspective, denise sees each day as a chosen moment to experience Christ's presence and peace. Thank you so much for being here, denise. I'm so excited that you're back. 

Speaker 2: Thank you. 

Speaker 1: Kristi, i am so excited to be here. 

Speaker 1: Good. So today I thought we could talk to my audience a little bit about the three levels of dependency. So I came across this quote on Instagram that I really that kind of resonated with me and reminded me of what our conversation is going to be about today, And it said you don't need to have a drinking problem to over. You don't need to have a drinking problem to come to the conclusion that drinking is a problem for you. And that looks different for everyone, right? And it's not just drinking, It's overeating, It's using any type of thing in a way that it's not intended. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, and so when you were just reading the MyBio and you said something about each person's unique journey, that's exactly what we're talking about here today. 

Speaker 2: So everybody who's listening, who feels like, who might even be questioning or knows, but let's just say you're questioning is drinking a problem for me? I love how you said, well, you don't have to have a problem for you to think it's a problem, and that's kind of where a lot of women are with their food as well. And so today I want to tell you about, sort of like, the unique journey three different journeys that you might be on with your drinking, and then after that I want to tell you what you can do about that, because it's not your journey or the unique level of dependency that determines what your next step is, because what's so interesting is that so often we might still be resistant to changing, but the truth is is that we're always in that change continuum. So I want to help you that, if you think something might be a problem or you're considering it, how you can take one step forward that doesn't involve stopping drinking. 

Speaker 1: How does that sound? Yeah, that sounds great. So why don't you go ahead and tell us about the three different levels of dependency that you see in your coaching practice? 

Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, so the majority of women I work with are emotional eaters, but I will tell you that some of them also are overusing alcohol as well, and I have my own journey with overcoming what I would call. 

Speaker 2: At one point I called myself an alcoholic. Now I call myself an overdrinker. I will fall into I'll tell you what category I fall into with my alcoholism as well All right, or alcohol use. So the first category is listen, i'm not really liking what I'm doing. And so this person? you might notice that you have a pattern of drinking, that you just have kind of gotten into this pattern, or what some people call a habit, and it just doesn't sit right with you. You might notice that when one glass of wine used to be enough, now it's two or three And you've just noticed that one doesn't do anything for you. 

Speaker 2: In general, you're kind of wondering, like, why am I doing this? You start to notice that you might be drinking more than you used to, or that you're comfortable with. And here's what's very interesting is that you look back in your past and you were like oh well, i used to handle my drinking really well a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, even though you would notice that there would be periods when you didn't really like the way you drank. So you'd kind of rate it back in and set some boundaries, and then you'd go through long periods of liking the way you drank And then you would go through a little period of not liking it. So one of the hallmarks of what I think is the first level of dependency is noticing that those periods of feeling comfortable about the way that you drink get shorter and shorter and shorter And you find that the times that you are drinking are more, the times that you are drinking that you're not pleased with are becoming more frequent. So here's a couple of things that you also might be experiencing. You might be, like, so stinking excited, like the minute somebody says let's get together for drinks, you're like, oh, that sounds way better than coffee. Oh, that sounds way better than coffee. You also find that when you drink you're getting a temporary relief. Everything is great. However, the next day you wake up with regret, or later you wake up with regret, or you've got this vow like, oh, i'm only going to have two glasses, and it's rarely that you can just drink. The amount that you plan to drink Makes sense. 

Speaker 2: So this is number one, where you're in that beginning stage, and those people typically might just be using alcohol in a way to not deal, like to kind of distract themselves, to just sort of numb out. This is kind of the level of emotional eaters Like hey, i'm overeating at certain times because they've never been given the tools on how to even look at why am I overeating Or why am I over drinking. And so I've had some women who, once we start really helping them look at their emotions, look at their patterns, we can start to detect patterns And we can then address the root cause of why they're eating with some life coaching tools Or some other tools where they know now how to meet that need that they've been using food for. They can meet that need that they've been using alcohol for, because usually we're using for something We're trying to get an effect. Either we're looking for relief, stress reduction I mean, i had a pretty emotionally abusive marriage And so when I'm drank it would help me get through dealing with this. 

Speaker 1: Well, and sometimes it's community, Like to be part of a community, to be part of the in-crowd too. So women are seeking that sense of community And it's like let's go have wine, or let's have wine and watch The Bachelor, or whatever it is that they do. And yeah, I think that's been kind of woven into our culture very much over the past decade or so. 

Speaker 2: And I like how you said the social piece, because I really think that that's the hallmark of the second piece. The second piece is our social networks. Our lives, the way we schedule events, the way we schedule our recreation, is largely scheduled around alcohol. If you look at your friends, that's what you're doing. If you look at what you and your husband are doing, does it always involve alcohol? I had one client who was working with me for emotional eating, but it was very apparent as we started working that her alcohol use was how she and her husband connected. I mean, that's just what they did, so it was pretty much meeting so many of her needs with regard to making her Well. For me, i can just know that I loved who I was when I drank, so I didn't have to look at my insecurities, right, yeah, so that second piece is where your life, many aspects of your life, is heavily relied on. 

Speaker 2: Whatever your substance is, whether it's food or alcohol, you're literally using it to cope. Like if somebody said, go to a restaurant and not order wine, you're like how will I talk to the people? How can I go to? Like it's like somebody going with who is an emotional eater, who I said well, go to a birthday party. And they're like how do I do that without the cake? How would I do that without overeating? And you almost have this belief that throughout your day you're fantasizing and daydreaming about when you can have your drink. And you know I can get through anything because you're thinking in the back of your head this will be fine, I'm just going to, i can get through this as long as I can have ABC. Fill in the blank with whatever food or alcohol you're going to have your favorites. I mean, this is how emotional eaters are. We playing our binges. It'll be great. I'm just going to drive through on the way home. It'll make everything better, yeah, and so we get into this. 

Speaker 2: Life is hard, life is hard. Life is hard, no big deal. I don't have to address why it's hard. I'm just going to go use, i'm just going to drink, i'm just going to eat, and then we just get into this cycle. So I think the hallmark, literally, is that your life just really relies almost for survival. Like you're kind of like I couldn't imagine not drinking. Life would be so painful without that, yeah. 

Speaker 2: So then the question is well, why do anything about it If it's making your life so great. But then there's a piece of you who is causing more trouble And you can tell it's making your life smaller and smaller and smaller. So people at this point might be concerned about your drinking. People may have talked to you about it, i know. For my husband and me it was, oh my gosh, every time we went out, like he couldn't count on me to be the designated driver And he knew he had to drive. So we fought every time OK, 98% of the time. So you might find that others are concerned with your drinking And the truth is, if you're honest with yourself, nobody really knows how much you drink. 

Speaker 2: You're likely hiding. At this point It's moved from social to your hiding. I remember and you guys can still relate to this I remember cleaning out, like, oh, i went to my basement to get some paper towels And I found a box of wine You know one of those boxes that has a big back And I was like I don't even remember putting this here. Yeah, this is really where I was. Now I didn't start carrying little bottles of wine with me to kids events, but that idea was making a lot of sense to me. I was in the place where I was almost going to start bringing my own little bottles of wine in my purse, of course, because I didn't know if enough alcohol would be available wherever I was going. I honestly didn't want my husband to see how much I was drinking. 

Speaker 1: Right. 

Speaker 2: Because he started to count that. 

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm, i see that all over social media like women holding up their water bottle and winking I put wine in here and they're looking for that approval or they're looking for that solidarity. Yeah, that's okay that you're doing that. One lady she took her Yeti water bottle, poured a bunch of wine in it, took a tea bag, cut the tea bag off and put the tea bag string hanging out of her thing so that it would look like she was drinking tea and not wine that she had in there. 

Speaker 2: And so here's the coolest thing is that for all of you who are listening to that, that's not a problem. It's not a problem if you choose to do that, but I'll tell you for me, even if somebody was like you go girl, you keep doing that, it wouldn't take away the pain that my alcoholism was causing me. Right, i was still feeling horrible about myself for doing it. I was still so confused Why am I drinking before my son's kindergarten graduation? This is the most ridiculous thing ever. Why am I doing this? I was so confused. I just felt so controlled, and I remember seeing this woman on Facebook and she was in some recovery Facebook group And I would see sober people or people who had overcome alcoholism, and they were like my heroes. 

Speaker 2: I could see the light in their eyes and the freedom, what? That's what I want. Right, that's what I want. I continually would see myself do things that, even though they were socially acceptable, didn't feel right to me. Yeah, and so all I want to say is you might find yourself in the second level. In this second level is, simply, you can see that it would be impossible to get through your life without alcohol or without emotional eating, and here's where it is. It's like it gets so painful that living with alcoholism is so painful, but thinking of living without it is so painful. 

Speaker 1: So you just feel super stuck. Yeah, yeah, a lot of women are so afraid of, like you were saying what am I going to do at this event? What am I going to do? You know what are people going to think when I say, no, thank you, i don't want to drink. They're going to ask me if I'm pregnant or if I. You know, like they assume all these things or are you an alcoholic? when they're just deciding for them at that time, like I just don't want to drink. 

Speaker 2: And you know that that's a problem. Or let me say you know that you your alcohol, your alcohol use like you think it's a problem. Let's just say that you think it could be a problem because there are just as many people who are being able to relate to what you and I are saying as who wouldn't and have zero mind drama being like, oh no, thank you. Even people who always get wine, like my sister-in-law oh my gosh, you guys. My sister-in-law is like two glasses max And so when she comes to my house she will often I'll say, hey, would you like a glass of wine? She loves having a glass of wine with family. It's great. But if she said no, if she would most she would have zero mind drama about saying no. 

Speaker 2: Isn't that funny, yeah, so we just know that. Oh wait, this is really just us. Yeah, because we think everybody else thinks that way And that's just not true. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. 

Speaker 2: And so for what? here's what I find. I find that for these people, the best thing, for them, best, let me just say one option isn't to just learn some tools. It is to decide that, with alcohol in your life, there's no moderating it at this point. We have to set it aside. Emotional eating We have to set it aside. 

Speaker 2: And the women that I work with we call them chaos causing foods, because a chaos causing food or a chaos causing substance which alcohol may or may not be for you, a chaos causing substance consumes your life. You're craving it, you overuse it And you're thinking about it when you're not using it. And then when you're using it or having it, you really can't moderate how much you have. And so I recommend that for that, for a short period of time, or a long period of time, depending on how long you just put that chaos causing substance aside. Now, i don't make anybody do that, and the women that I work with, some choose to still eat some of their chaos causing foods, but the people who have the recovery will eventually find that those chaos causing foods are causing so much chaos that they then choose. 

Speaker 2: So it's all part of the journey. And then, finally, the third level of dependency is you have a physical dependency. Your life, your social connections primarily involve alcohol, and you are drinking with people who drink as much as you. So everybody's totally normalized it. This is just what we do. You really believe that nobody understands that anybody who doesn't drink as much as you is like insane. It's totally normal And you have convinced yourself. For the majority, like this isn't a problem. This just isn't a problem because you've surrounded yourself with that lifestyle And those, literally, are probably not the people listening to this, right? 

Speaker 2: Because if you're listening to this, you wouldn't be listening to this. So here's the next question. That is okay. We've got these three different levels, so what? Okay? 

Speaker 2: So here's the coolest thing, you guys, is that there's a golden question that you can ask yourself on what do I do next? So there's you. Just there's three levels of what's called readiness, and there is a change theory a little bit of like psychology here called stages of change, and the stages of change you can categorize yourself with anything that you may or may not be wanting to change, and then, depending on and I'll ask you what the golden question is in a minute. But, depending on your answer, then you know what your next step is Like, what would be like the next thing to do that's effective, because think of you know all of us who want to start exercising what don't really want to. If you jump in with both feet, it typically does not last because you're not really ready, unless you're really ready. So I want you guys to be able to assess your level of readiness. So if you're listening to this And you're thinking my drinking is not a problem, this is not a problem, there's no problem here, folks, i just think that Christie and Denise are super entertaining Then you're in what's called pre contemplation, which means you're not even thinking about it. The second level is huh, you know what I can relate to. Some of the things they're saying is very interesting to me. Okay, now this person is thinking you know what I need to change? probably, but not today And not someday, and I'm not willing to do anything in the next 30 days because the next stage is somebody who's like Oh yeah, i'm really, i've got to do something about this. I am, i've got to take some action in the next 30 days. Okay, so those are the three levels of readiness. The person who doesn't have any concept of a problem there in pre contemplation. We're not going to talk to you anymore because you don't even see there's a problem. But if you find that, you're thinking, hey, might I know I need to address this someday, but definitely not in the next 30 days. 

Speaker 2: Now you, my friend, how can you help yourself address this at all and not feel stuck? How can you empower yourself? There's a little. There's a little thing we like to call Google, and so what you can do for yourself is to just make yourself a student of alcoholism, a student of yourself. You start noticing your patterns, start noticing what's going on. Just open your eyes. You don't have to do anything about it, but just be willing to look at it. It's interesting. Listen to podcasts, listen to your podcast. Just start to know patterns. Now, what's out there? 

Speaker 2: I used to and I remember being in this stage for a super long time I would research the effects of alcoholism. What are the long term effects of alcoholism? I would just keep trying to get information because I really wanted something to just trigger me to want to stop. And so your number one tool and contemplation is education. You can just learn as much as you can about yourself and alcohol use. That's it. It's pretty simple. 

Speaker 2: Now, if you're ready to change, though, and you stand hey, listen, in the next 30 days, i really want to do something. I would really encourage you to continue to do the education piece, learn everything about what you're currently doing, your patterns, your behaviors, as well as, maybe, what's happening to you physically, and you know if you really want to change. You even ask yourself how's this affecting my family? How's this making my life harder? How's this making my life easier? You can start asking yourself questions, and these are coaching questions that you can ask What are the benefits of drinking? And get clear on that. What is alcohol bringing to my life? Yeah, emotionally eating brain to my life, because I'm going to tell you, guys, it was a lot to our life. That's why we're still doing it. 

Speaker 2: And then the second question is what's it costing me? And just getting real clear on the cost. You don't have to do anything with this information, but that's part of the education, and I remember when I started asking myself what's costing me. It's costing me for me, oh man, it was my self confidence. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, it was so isolating myself. It was costing me my real, a real marriage because I was enabling my husband to treat me like garbage. But of course I let him treat me like garbage because I felt like I was garbage Right, isn't it so interesting, the trickle down effect? Yeah, i was really angry at my kids Anytime, you know, not all the time But if it was time for them to go to bed I did not know how to manage my emotions. I would just either be nice or yell. Nice or yell. I had no ability to talk to them and explain. I was just kind of a loose cannon. It was costing myself confidence. It was costing me my waistline. It was costing me, like, even the ability to wake up clearheaded in the morning Or even to have like an exercise program I could stick to because I was too hungover in the morning. 

Speaker 1: Yeah. 

Speaker 2: And then, if you are that person, like I said, who is ready to change in the next 30 days, who is ready to help your options for help. Do you want to do this with a group? you guys know a is available. Do I want to do this with a group? Do I want to do this with a coach? Who do I want to do this with? who can help me? Is there a program out there I can? do you start looking for your options? 

Speaker 2: I can do this with somebody else who's been here, who can understand what I'm going through, and I know, christy, you offer a free discovery call where somebody can say, hey, what are my options? and I know you'll help tease that out with them. Yeah, absolutely. What I tell women when I do a discovery call with them and I know you are the exact same way Is when you get off the phone, you're going to have so much clarity and hope And you will tell them is what their next steps would look like by themselves or what their next steps would look like with you. but you're not going to leave them dangling. No, you're going to tell them hey, this is what your next steps would be And if you're so empowered that there is a solution. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, there is, there's, there are so many solutions, like you were saying, denise, and I appreciate all how you've shared all of this about the dependency, not just about the levels of dependency but the ways to seek help and find, you know, just kind of discover what it is. Is it is a chaos, is it? I love how you say chaos causing, because that definition that you gave was just spot on, because if it's stealing your peace, if it's stealing your joy, if it's you know not if it's doing more harm than good, then that's really time to take a look at it. If you're using a substance or food to medicate instead of, you know, celebrate and enjoy, then that's time to start maybe looking at it If they're having a problem. But I think so many women, especially the women that I talked to, they do go from like a glass of wine a night and then it's to, and then it's a bottle, and then they're like how did I get here? 

Speaker 1: And really just being able to look at that, like the why and the how and, like you were saying, with coaching and even doing it on their own, just looking at, like the pros and the cons, what is it giving me, what is it taking away and just really evaluating the role that alcohol or food or whatever it is, is playing in their life, and is that helping them be who God created them to be? or is it stealing precious moments that we can't get back? you know, and I actually would I don't even know what level I would fall into because I am the. I can't have a drink without completely going off the rails. So I am physically addicted. So if I have one drink maybe you know it's been 26 years maybe I would be able to moderate. I don't know for a time. But I will tell you, the very first time I consumed alcohol it was all bets are off. 

Speaker 1: They say like one drink is too many and a million is never enough. That's the type of drinker that I am, and there are women out there who hopefully are listening and can relate to what I'm saying, because you don't have to live like that, like when you were saying you would look at the women in the recovery and you could see the light in their eyes and you could just see the joy. That's really what I think you and I both hope to exude, like we don't want to tell anybody. Like you need to do this. You have to do this program, do this thing, because it's not a one size fits all, but what we are here to do is to just bring hope and light and let you know that if, if you have a problem, there's freedom and God will help you, and there's so many other options out there to help you. Like you don't have to stay where you are, you don't have to stay stuck. 

Speaker 2: No, i'm glad you said the level that you are and I said that I would say what level I was And I think I was number two, the hiding part. I was definitely a hiding part And at this point you know my husband when I was an early sobriety it'll be nine and a half years now But when I was an earlier sobriety, of course we had to learn a lot and we did overcome our emotionally abusive marriage and got help for that. But earlier in sobriety, like year one or two, he was like do you think you ever drink again? And I would be like, oh, i don't know, i don't know, i don't think. So I was kind of like no, i can't ever. 

Speaker 2: And what's interesting is that I have thought in these later years like, hey, maybe I will like live once a year up. I might have some wine or something. And I remember saying that to him one time. I was like you know, i could probably like have a glass of wine or something now. And he said to me he goes not on my watch. Our lives have just infinitely gotten better. I just thought that was so funny because I thought every once in a while, i don't know, i mean, i don't know. I do know that I think that if I did have another drink and it was a problem, i do feel very willing to be like oh yeah, that's just not, it's just not willing. I'm at this point I'm not willing to experiment because for what Like it would bring potential, the risk is just too great. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's looking at the piece that you have around, not? and then do you want to go back to that chaos of like, oh, now I have to go back? The good thing is, i mean, just because somebody has a slip or something, you always learn something. So if you have a relapse, if you have a slip, if you break a boundary or a promise that you've made to yourself, whatever it is, it doesn't mean that you're a failure. It doesn't mean you can't try again. You're always better because you have more knowledge that next time. So I have talked to this one lady and she's like I've drank like this for 30 years. There's no hope for me. And I'm like there is hope because you're talking to me First of all, and every time she tries she brings more awareness, gets more clarity around her drinking, and I just pray that someday she'll be able to find that freedom and experience it. But yeah, there's always hope. As long as we have breath in our lungs, there's always hope. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, and you guys. Just the thing is that if you're listening to this and you're like that woman who has been dependent for 20, 30 years but you want to change, i already told you what to do. 

Speaker 2: You just educate yourself, yeah, and the more you do that. It's been researched, friends, for several years. Like I think this theory was developed in the 90s And it's continued to be researched that the more you educate yourself about something, you naturally start to change, even if you don't want to change Or even if you're not trying. Simply by educating yourself and knowing change occurs. It's so cool, it's like a mind hack, do it. 

Speaker 1: I know it is, I dare you. That's awesome. Well, I am just so pleased that you are here today. I thank you so so much. It's been such a blessing for me, And I'm sure many women are going to just be able to at least change their mindset around whatever level of problem or maybe even just curiosity about how their drinking is affecting them or their family. I think that you've brought some real awareness and clarity to that And I just appreciate you so so much. And yeah, do you have anything else that you are wanting to say before we? 

Speaker 2: close. No, Christy, just to thank you so much. It is such a blessing to be able to help women know they're not alone. There's always hope. So thank you for what you do. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you, and I will leave Denise's contact information in the show notes So if you want to get ahold of her, she also does a free discovery call. So if you're struggling with food or anything else, denise is amazing And you can set up a discovery call And your life will be transformed one way or the other. So thank you so much And I will look forward to talking to you again soon, hopefully. Thanks, christy, have a great day You too. Well, that does it for this episode of the Rescued and Redeemed podcast. I am so honored and grateful that you joined me today. If you found these stories of redemption or the information provided to be valuable, i would kindly ask that you share this podcast with a friend or loved one who might benefit from it, and please subscribe to my show so that you never miss an episode. And if you feel moved to do so, i'd love it if you left a review. And remember I am here for you, i am praying for you, you are not alone.